Yeah right, Osama Obama!

What a load of one sided, racist crock! Just another black man with a chip on his shoulder and no brain at all. By the way, you obviously have your brain and heart mixed up, my boy. It is clear wht is in your heart and in your brain.

You related to luxm?

Why bother to reply to this article?
He is just trying to get your blood pressure up – the fewer people that even bother to read this article the better this country will be.
Just another BEE (Blame Everyone Else) token.

We will NEVER have a safe and successful country while articles like this are allowed to be published.
There are “bad” things happening in both the black and the white communities, but there are also a million “good” things happening daily in our country!! But they don’t make headlines, do they??
Articles like this are hurting and embarrassing our country in the eyes of the world and certainly not enhancing 2010!!

It is such a pity………

Hi guys.
Unfortunately this debate is open to everybody. I’m not being racist, I’m just highlighting the gory state of affairs in this country.This has little to do with BEE or 2010.
Nobody has bothered to answer the question above.
Thanks again.Let’s be real with ourselves. ARE WE READY TO HAVE A WHITE PRESIDENT?

What a typical load of racist c**p from another typical South African racist. You should be committed, after you add a few more items to your list under the column you mislabelled as “brain”

“Is your definition of a united country one where” racist hate songs are tacitly approved of by state and ruling party?
“Is your definition of a united country one where“ state policy on uniting the country is the imposition of racist law?
“Is your definition of a united country”, a country where black boys murder old grannies on the same farms the other atrocities you refer to occur, without any condemnation from state or media?
“Is your definition of a united country one where one where” the current mob murderers are labelled “xenophobes”
“Well, its naive and ignorant people like you who think just because we have a black president, everything then should be all good.” You are quite correct just think of Mad Rob Mugabe and all the other honourable members on that long list of African tyrants. Guess who defends the murderous thieving mad dictator across our border? Guess who leads our government departments and failing state institutions with under qualified employees and nepotism the order of the day?.

You must be the editor of that state propaganda c**p publication I received in my mailbox yesterday, sponsored by my tax payer rand, that is if those rands make it into the treasury coffers. The said publication noticeably, without a picture anywhere to be seen of a whiteboy or describing anywhere in it what state benefit there is for the whiteboy.

You see the difference between you and the American Democratic Party members is that they have brains and are not racists. They are voting for a true leader with real policy ideas and changes for “All” Americans and not just one segment of the population based on race. He is an inspirational leader that leads by inclusion not exclusion, which is why he gets support from all Americans.

As Barak himself states, if he loses it will not be about his color but by his failure to sell his dream of a better America to all Americans. (Guess what if he had a South African leaders mentality his first excuse if he lost, would be it was because of his race)

SA could do with a true leader like Barak Obama whatever his colour because he is a true inspirational leader first, being a black person is a secondary consideration to himself and Democrat Americans.

Braving the weather there Lindile aren’t you? (wink.. wink)

It’s funny that people who always cry “racism” feel obliged to lash back with their own racist comments…I guess it’s ok as along as THEY SAY IT…Phew!

A white President? NO…we’ve come too far to go back. In as much as I feel disillusioned by the cracks within the ANC…voting for anyone else would be tantamount to invalidating everything that my fore-fathers fought for. It’s still too early to even consider such!

Happy Expat…I guess this makes me related to luxm too!

The weather is it Tando maara I can roll with the punches. I might be related to luxm but sure can’t stand the dude.

You see Tando and there in lies the heart of your problem, you identify with the ANC as “black” in colour and not due to a set of principles or results, remarkably this in defiance of the stated non racial visions and principles of the original leaders of the ANC, where interestingly whites were far more representative than at present.

Of course in your mind it is also logical to preference a billionaire over a poor street hobo as long as he is the correct colour. These policies being the current and not the original doctrines of the ANC.

In your heart and mind you actually show that your doctrine is really no different to the ex National party MP’s you so despise, where colour was king, for that reason you will never be able to look through a skin to the identify the necessary and required moral leadership qualities required within a true leader.

After all JZ displays all the moral authority and leadership qualities necessary to lead SA through the next decade, we should all vote for him regardless of his colour.

PS the rand is now the worst performing emerging market currency in 2008 due to what, great leadership? Do not believe everything you read that imported price inflation is due to no fault of our own.

Osama Obama….. I smell a lawsuit coming on

Good point Atari I actually read through that one without even noticing

I’m about to walk in “where angels fear to tread”. As soon as someone mentions ‘race’ in SA, hackles are raised, the tempers flare – and the brains close down.

Tando – why not a white president? Provided we’re voting for his policies, not his race. (But who said it had to be “he”? What’s wrong with “she”?) Otherwise, I agree that we’ve come a long way from pre-1994, but from the tone of this blogg, I’d venture to suggest that we’ve come nowhere near far enough.

The other thing that makes me smile, however cynically, is that if Obama was a Seffrikan, he’d probably not be regarded as black, but as a coloured person. The Americans, bless ‘em, seem to brand everyone with even the slightest claim to being “melaninically-advantaged” as being “black”. In SA, Obama would probably not be seen as being black-enough to count towards the quota for the sporting team.

If we think about it in those terms, how many of our current party faithful would be willing to vote for Trevor Manuel as President? Hhhmm? I thought not.

Lindile & Tando, I agree that we’re a long way from being ready for anyone other than a black person as President, no matter how well-qualified they might otherwise be. As yet, we just can’t get past the “race” thing.

But perhaps our kids might be able to – provided that you and I don’t contaminate their minds with our poor thinking.

You’re actually raising a very good point there Lindile. Your premise however, encourages racial stereotyping. I can honestly say that most white people I have come across are not like these extraordinary acts we’ve witnessed in our history. I think the question should rather be, is there any real opposition for the ANC (whether white, black)?

Whiteboy you’re absolutely spot on about Obama, don’t know about the democrats yet. One thing you do fail to do though is to relate it to the South African situation. Cast your eye across our political landscape identify one politician that has the qualities of Barrack Obama.

Sadly, the reality (in South Africa) is that all the parties headed or dominated by white people are not inclusive and only really look at white interests. You might argue that the ANC (or blacks to many of the ignorant and bitter) does the same, I won’t get into the merits of that but will only point out that two wrongs do not make a right.

You see one problem I have with these parties – for lack of a better word – is that they have no idea what happens each and everyday in the lives of the majority (much like our present government) of this nation (and it seems they have no real interest in finding out).

Marching against drugs will not solve the drug problem in townships as it is a complex issue with many factors affecting it. It needs real solutions. Pointing out gov’s shortcomings is easy and really means nothing. Holding a rally and feeding hungry children in the rural areas for one day is also meaningless.

To me a white president will just be another politican. The nature of politics dictate that people will vote for the ones that they percieve as the ones that understand their (and thus the country’s) needs the most. This is the conundrum our country finds itself in. Í’ve said it more than once on these blogs and will say it again, this segregation is killing our nation.

I think that South Africa is ready for a white president. The infrastructure, municipalities and government structures are crying out for disciplined, educated leadership. The present leadership has sound policies and ideas, but lacks any kind of courage and conviction to do what is RIGHT rather than what is POPULAR. If we had a white presidential candidate who could promise the nation economic growth, effective policing, responsible and accountable governance, equal opportunities for all, an uninterrupted electricity supply and PROPER support for the poorest of the poor, I see no reason why every South African would not jump at the chance to vote for this person. Black South Africans have never had the chance to vote with their heads rather than their hearts, I think we should give them more credit than this herd mantality propogated by Lindile and Tando. It would be a step forward, not back, my friends.

Sorry, that should have been ‘mentality’. I doubt I will ever be president if I can’t spell…

A white President, who is going to vote for him/her. Not in this life time dude. They had their chance and missused it. Their mistake was thinking that a white person is superior and black inferior. So the answer is No and a big No we are not read for a white president.

I think Subz! came pretty close to offering a solution to the challenge.
If we were to vote representatives of our area into power, we might actually get somewhere. Instead, we vote for reps of a national political party, and so they toe the overall national policy line rather than a policy that might benefit us locally.
Surely it would make more sense for our representatives in national forums to be sent with a mandate from their local electorate? Can you imagine if we sent, for example, Dr Trudy Thomas or Dr Costa Gazi to represent us in Bisho or Pretoria rather than what’s-her-name who’s still trying to tell us there is no crisis of staffing at Frere and CM.
We should have people representing us who are accountable to the people who elected them to their positions. We need people to represent us who are willing to confront the national authorities when their national interest conflicts with our (perhaps narrower) local interest.
But as long as people are elected according to their place on the national list, the people appointed have no reason to represent our local interests.

Miesh, listen to yourself – ‘They had their chance’. Seeing white people as one evil group will never reconcile this country (if that is what you would like to happen). In two sentences you have exposed your terrible racial prejudice. Racists like you are going to be the downfall of our country if you are not careful.

Yha right realist the ‘The infrastructure, municipalities and government structures are crying out for disciplined, educated leadership’ I guess black presidents that we had, didn’t have those qualities. I would love to know how was our infrastructure etc before 94 when the white man was in power.

For me the arguement advanced by Whiteboy is ahistorical and lacks understanding of ANC strategic objectives. From time immemorial, the ANC has always taken race as an important factor in it’s politics. The principle of non-racialism is not based outside the socio-ecinomic and political realities of the past, whose legacy still lingers on in the current situation.

Non-racialism is the ideal to which the ANC strives. The attainment of this and other related objectives will then means the end of the ANC because it would have achieved what it stands for. We are still far from achieving this objective of non-racialism.

To undo the legacy of the past can only mean addressing racial oppression blacks and Africans in particular, suffered under decades of apartheid and centuries of colonialism. That is the historical task of the ANC. Any talk of blacks being racist when rasing these facts is another ploy to re-incurnate apartheid.

We must never forget where we come from!

Miesh, the black presidents have been wonderful, visionary leaders. They have been hamstrung by the incompetent people filling vital service delivery posts. Where do you come from with this ‘the white man’ stuff? Wake up, it is 2008 – not 1708!!

mzugo, are you suggesting that the Anglo-Saxons should never forget that they were occupied, repressed and abused by the Normans? (Northern France, if you prefer.) The Normans even tried to suppress the language, but the sneaky anglo-saxons worked a reverse take-over!)
Are you suggesting that the Egyptians should remember that they were conquered, and enslaved, by the Romans? Or many of the local tribes who were butchered by other African tribes? (The Shona and Matabele spring to mind.)Or the Germans invading Poland, the Russians invading Czechoslovakia.

It might be difficult to forget where we came from – but I would suggest that we need to forgive. Otherwise we are condemning ourselves and our children to lingering bitterness and characterisation. This is unlikely to be at all helpful in creating one united and reconciled nation. !ke e: /xarra //ke, remember?

from SA relist. I don’t care what you say, you can call me a racist. I will call u a racist back this is a free country after all, but a white president is a no no. We will never forget where we come from.

I would vote a GREEN person in if they were the RIGHT person for the job. It’s not the colour, it’s the service they should provide for the country.

It’s a shame the President has to be a politician. I reckon an Average Joe could do a better job. At least they would have an idea of what people NEED in SA, not what they can get in the way of personal gain.

Meish, try harder!

You are playing along with those who are happy to say “Africa will never change!” Can you imagine how you would have to bend your mind if (God forbid!) Alec Irwin was to become ANC President? What then?

Besides which, you yourself say that it’s a free country. So then, why should a white person’s children not be eligible to become president? (I agree that it might be difficult for this generation.) But why not a white “born free”? We already have a generation coming through who have never experienced Apartheid, even though they can still see the lingering effects. There are kids, of all races, coming through the “former Model C” schools who have friends in all communities. Are they forever doomed to be condemned for the sins of their forefathers? What about immigrant children of all races, whose parents chose to come to SA to build up the New South Africa? Are they too to be condemned because “we will never forget”?

Am I seeking Utopia? Maybe, but shouldn’t we at least try – for th benefit of all our children, and their children too?

Meish, you should care what I say – it is of great value to you to know what your perceived enemy is thinking. If you are not open to different points of view and are not able to argue yours rationally, what are you doing on this blog? Narrow-mindedness and group mentality got us into this mess in the first place, my fellow African.

Fine Mzugo

Except you are missing the main point the ANC inherited two economies a formal 30% and informal 70%. You cannot take the 70% informal and just plug it into the 30% formal through statute. It just does not fit, nor will it ever fit, be efficient enough or big enough. You need to rapidly grow the 30% economies size. This will never be achieved by anti-competitive, anti-growth and divisionary statutes, the ANC now holds as the solution to the socio economic problems to which you refer. Instead these statutes are simply rebalancing the 30% to the detriment of the existing participants and growth, without any regard to the 70% that is left behind.

As I said before concentrate all efforts on education and the provision of globally competitive infrastructure, a global efficient economy will emerge naturally as a result. Winners will never be created by statute they will emerge through their own education will and determination to succeed.

Success needs to be earned not handed out. The rest of the world is happy to use our white human capital to facilitate their economies growth, but we are not? Why not? Do we not feel the need for growth or skills? Every skilled person in the formal economy creates at least two additional jobs so why do we so easily export those jobs solely on racial bias? Will their export eventually speed up the 70% entry into the formal economy and solve the socio economic issues to which you refer?

I strongly dispute two of your comments:

“Non-racialism is the ideal to which the ANC strives”

My feeling here is that actions speak much louder than words, however you dress them up? Please show me the real improvements in education after 15 years that will eventually lead to true non racialism in South Africa?

“Any talk of blacks being racist when rasing these facts is another ploy to re-incurnate apartheid.”

Absolute rubbish how can the demand of a level playing field that will facilitate growth be construed as a will to reincarnate apartheid? Please remember we are competing in a global economy that does not give a thought to race, only the countries productivity. What “facts” do you refer to above?

One Zim dollar today created by the redistribution of the 30% economy in Zimbabwe without the required growth in productivity in the 70% never helped anyone rebalance socio economic issues in Zim, so why is our slightly more veiled, but similar policy going to achieve any more success over here?

Truly successful countries are successful due to less government intervention in the economy and not more. Please show us a country where socio economic issues were improved by racial statutes and not by education and real economic growth?

realist, your last sentence is spot on. Well said.

Viva, realist, viva!

Mzugo

One last thing

“We must never forget where we come from!”

Agreed, but lets not spend to much time looking in the rear view mirrors that we mis seeing the on coming traffic through the windcreen.

Meish…

I want to ask you something , are you Black.. ?

I have a young black lady that works with me. She said something to me the other day that made me think. She holds down two jobs.
One day and one evening job. She says that her black friends laugh at her because she does two jobs. Then she said that in most cases black people want everything handed to them on a plate. And then she shocked me…. She said that there are many young educated black dynamic people that would never vote for a black president again. She puts its …. Its all hot air… *** stroking and honey basting, but when you get to the bottom of it all… It looking after no 1 first… The people come last..

Now thats from a young black female..

So who will vote for a white prez…. Me… I voted for Thabo last time, but he showed that he hasnt got the balls to run a country. Vote for Zuma … You gotta kid me…

You might be amazed as to how fed up the people are of promises.

Atari Boy, you and your colleague bring hope to all thinking people.

I just hope that the majority of the voters are prepared to hold accountable those whose promises are unfulfilled. Experience in countries to the north show, however, that promises seem to be an infinitely renewable resource.

I hope I’m wrong because I’d like to be.

Meish

By opening your mouth and spewing garbage you open your self to severe criticism. In addition you give people a true sense of your IQ. So if you dont wanna sound like an a s s, think before you talk.

You know what Meish, I will vote for who can get the job done. Black leadership failed…. Your comment of ” knowing where I come from ” smell the prozac Meish. You can hold on to where you come from, keep digging up apartheid, keep digging up the hurts…. be my guest, but not everyone is like you.

Advice sonny boy… You might know where you come from, but you have no idea where you going, and by your state of mind you dont seem to any idea what you want either

Gandalf, I’ll be telling my 3 month old boy that I have a dream that one day South Africans won’t be judged by the colour of their skin, but by the strength of their character. If we are to succeed, every child in South Africa must be able to grow up with a realistic hope of one day being able to lead his or her nation.

Our country is no ready for a white president.Not now not in 2020 not in 5050 or beyond. I’m not being rasist.the truth of the matter is that our Black president isn’t doing much to uplift the poorest of the poor and his White opponents are doing nothing to helph either what they do is just oppose his actions verbally nothing more nothing less. As much as most of us would like to give a White president a chance the majority of this country is black and there is no way Black poeple will ever vote for a White President in this country because of the resent incidents us Lindile’s brain and heart argued above. And again or White Politicians don’t have the interests of the poor at heart just like Black politicians. So who would a black person in the Middle of Centane or at the edge of the Country in Limpompo vote for? definatly not Baas……

To Meish and Atari
No need for the abusive language or personal attacks. Let’s leep it clean guys. We are just debating.

Poor old pink, it must be terrible living with such hatred and ill-will towards people who are every bit as South African as you are. You judge 5 million people by the actions of a few hundred?Do you not realise that by not giving every South African a chance to show you their personal integrity and by labelling vast groups of people you are no better than the people who imlemented the horrific apartheid system? Whoever will root out the incompetent public servants in municipalities and government departments country-wide will get my vote. As I have said before: Mr Mbeki is a great man. If only we could have civil servants like him.

It seems impossible for us to debate racial matters without hurling all sorts of accussations at each other. Are we ready for a white president? hell yeah, why not – everybody deserves a chance, just as long as they’ll deliver to the people regardless of colour. I hate the fact that other races are made to feel as if they don’t belong in SA. Would we rather vote for a man who is busy trying so hard not to go to court and face charges levelled against him? Worse still, his party is hell-bent on disbanding the same unit thats trying to enforce the law – this just goes to show that too much power is a danger to our democracy. I believe presidents should be respected and wise individuals with very high moral standards – If that person happens to be white so be it.

Well said, Lwazi. Unfortunately most people in South Africa are expected to vote with their hearts(emotionally) rather than with their heads (reasonably). I do hope that the bloggers who keep referring to white South Africans as a threat rather than a potential resource for the greater good are not indicative of the attitude of the majority of South Africans. If it is, our beloved country is in serious trouble.

to realist: you did not read my colum properly.
I sugest you read it aagain.

To lwazi: if mbeki is such a good President why is so damn difficult for him to fire incompitent servents and yet easy to fire those who trying their best e.g. ex deputy minister of health.

Well said Lwazi and I can add – If that person so happens to be Black so be it.(The case in point of Barak)

Miesh – so then while you are labeling all people into one category – you are black so you are a thief, rapist, murderer, uneducated but hell you can dance. Do you agree?

Pink I cant recall saying Mbeki is a good president so I’m not sure where you get that idea – truth is, his reputation is deterioting with each day that goes by – reason why we should look at people like Trevor Manuel and many other respected leaders who have excelled in their portfolio’s a chance – they don’t have to be from the ANC as people seem to think. SA belongs to all who live in it thus the need for equal opportunities. Lets just think a little and stop being paranoid.

Atari – either the “young black lady” that works with you is trying to score brownie points or she has a serious inferiority complex.

Why do I say this? Well these days, for some black people, it’s very “in” to say such to white people as they believe they will be regarded as intelligent and not part of “the herd”. Secondly “Most cases black people want everything handed to them on a plate”, and “never vote for a black president again” leads me to think she (and the “many young educated black dynamic people” she hangs out with) cannot analyse issues critically. She must stop generalising and must try meet positive “black” people cause obviously in her circles there aren’t many.

I’m sorry mate, all your statement does is convince me that there are young people that are still completely missing the plot. Sounds like she’s fought/fighting her way out, and deserves to be applauded for that, but she must now shake the psychological chains. The gov is pathetic cause they are not because they are black. She must come to Cape Town, it’s much diff to the rest of teh country.

Whiteboy – you sure have a very strong argument with solid points. Education, education education is the way to go. Would love to get into it but have to dash. Maybe later I’ll have time.

pink, as tempting as it is to knock holes in your spelling ability I’ll stick to arguing the facts. You are probably arguing with me in your second language (another big barrier to communication in our country). After struggling through your first post again: you cannot expect the opposition parties to be doing anything in the poor communities when they don’t wield any political power. They have to point out shortcomings in the ruling party if they hope to be elected to power one day. Remember that an election is a popularity contest, so if you can expose your opponent as incompetent the thinking person will vote for you if you can convince him/her that you are more capable. Democracy in action… I don’t like the way you think that you know what all black people in the country are thinking. You must be very well travelled and superbly skilled at languages.

Whiteboy

It’s good that you have taken some important issues on what I said. You are also raising important questions. The only problem is that your analysis of the economy and leveling of playing field is both mischevious and dangerous.

Let’s ask the question: In the formal economy that you so glowingly spoke about, which race is dominant? The related question is, in the informal economy, which race is dominant? The answer to both questions is known to everyone… oh, probably not to you. In the formal economy white males dominate, whilst in the informal backs dominate. That was not by accident but by design.

The reason why I say your suggestion for the levelling of the playing field is mischevious is because it would seem to have two runners racing for the same distance of 100 meters. Only the first one (white)has been placed 10 meters to the finishing line, whilst the other one (black) is at the beging of the 100 meter distance.

This suggestion of yours is dangerous because it breeds resentment among the black population as a result of the ever elusive economic independence due to the wider gap between the haves (white) and the have nots (backs).

Lastly, the entrenched capitalist economy in South Africa favours whites. It is white capitalism by design. The logic of capitalism is the maximasation of profits for the previleged few (whites) and the impoverishment of the majority of (black) workers. There can never be fair and equitable distribution of wealth without the intervention of the democratic government that represent the majority of the country. That intervention has to happen because you cannot leave the poor to the mercy of market kingpins who want these poor souls to kneel down in prayer whislt the devil takes the hindmost.

I’m amazed at the responses to a non question. SA and a white president?. This blog topic and the veracity of the sentences are really unwarranted. A white president is unlikely in the near future and to draw a parallel with the US politics, where there’
s at least a 50 percent chance of a black president is really trying too hard to create debate. And it is very dangerous to open misplaced wounds about isolated race incidents perpetrated by white people , and mix that up with macro political developments.
Remember the Fairheads murders in Peddie – no white person did that. Equally, those people should not be seen as black but as criminals.
And worse of all, the negative portrayal of white people in such a generalised trivial blog is equally dangerous.
It’s a fallacy that what is done by a minority is true of the whole white community.

If we are to build a united country, we have to show restraint and maturity. The media platform need not be abused. Columnists need to learn from the David Bullard incident.

Subz

The only one here that wants to score brownie points here is you. My staff ( and I have 3 black staff members ) agree with the points Atari made.

Not everyone walks around with a ” i am black you owe me coase of the past ” attitude. I am very close to my guys, and we talk a lot because we spend hours together on the road. They all agree that black people get everything on a silver platter. Many black people feel like that. The pre 94 ….lets fight the bad apartheid evil doers … has gone. Only the die hards remain. Many young black adults have grown the ability to think for themselves.

And not everyone agrees with whats happening. Sisanda my editor made a comment about you…. He wanted to know why you think the world owes you anything ?

Big problem with some of the bloggers is generalisation – not the way to go if you ask me. We’re all individuals and labelling all black, white, Indian or coloured people with the same brush is quite ignorant. I think we seriouly need to open our minds and hearts to the idea of unity – not easy but I believe we can do it. The idea of blacks not voting for a any other race except their own and whites, Indians or coloureds doing the same is detrimental to the success of this country. We must not make those in power feel entitled to it. Our government ignores us because they know that either way they’ll still occupy office come next election. Look at situations like Khutsong, the crime and Scorpions, no consultation what so ever. They do what they want whenever they want. Lets give oothers a chance – and again, the next president doesn’t have to be black as long as they can deliver.

Interesting one Gadget. I find that attitude sprouting route all over.
Why is it that when someone black disagrees with a persons point of view he or she is scorned upon by the rest of her own people. ???

The mind boggles

That is a generalisation right there Atari
This is three people you talking about. not the rest of the black population.

Bongani, I thought you had stopped commenting on these blogs. Switch off your computer now before you reveal more of your intolerant personality to the world.
Mzungo, welcome to the real world where intelligent, astute business people are in charge of the largest section of the economy. If only our city and privincial leaders were of the same ilk everyone in our province would be far better off. BEE is killing the goose that lays the golden eggs, my friend. A shrinking economy means fewer tax rands and this saps the lifeblood from any government funded initiatives to redress imbalances from the past. Encourage ‘the entrenched capitalist economy ‘ – it is the reason our country has the most powerful economy in Africa.

Mlwane

Dont know much about your last comment. I to have heard those sentiments not once, not twice.. quite a few times. From many different levels of black society.

It seems that there is some serious discontent brewing

Hey HLH

How ya been. Its quite scary to think that that a lot of the black population think like this. I thought it was all in my mind.

How was the Congo ?

Mlwane

This is the thing. These are three we know about ! How many others are there…

Valid point Gadget

“IS SOUTH AFRICA READY TO HAVE A WHITE PRESIDENT?”

No, not today, not in the near future…

Before anyone hurls accusations at me (whether racially prejudiced or not), I should point out that if everyone in this blog was even slightly realistic, then everyone would agree with me.

Imagine if you had asked this question in 1970, except instead of white you replace it with black? You probably would have been deported to Antarctica by the powers that be, except today, you ask this very controversial question and its freely debated by all races that reside in this country, and abroad.

Forget everything that you were taught as a child and think realistically through this question without personalising or standing in your own shoes.

Try someone else’s shoes instead, preferably the 70% Economy who in the past 14 years have moved out of their shacks and into their new RDP houses, those who have access to electricity & water instead of going to the river, even if its one tap servicing 10 families.
Put yourself into the shoes of those families who now don’t have to **** into one bucket for a week before its collected but instead are using a flushable toilet and sharing it with maybe three families. The shoes of those who have access to disability & pension grants that are equal throughout Shouth Africa, regardless of their skin colour and the shoes of those who can now walk freely in suburban and city areas after 19h00 and not get arreasted or accused of any crime.

I could cite more reasons and situations that have been improved for the 70%.

The 30%…

Have had their privileges, not taken away, but reduced. are they willing to share, maybe, and thats the hinderance.

Only, and only if you put yourself in the shoes of that 70% will you realise that 69% of that Economy will for many years to come continue to vote for a black president, regardless of their peformance, but because of what they went through in the past.

This is not about being racist or remembering the past etc.

It’s just being REALISTIC!! Let us answer Lindinle’s question, not what most of us who can sit infront of a computer thats connected to the internet would like to see happening in this country.

What we should be debating is why those people would continue to vote for a black president regardless of performance, when the world for the other 30% is crumbling…

Now I don’t understand why this discussion has suddenly shifted to what blacks think, how about what everybody thinks. The attacks on foreign nationals are full proof of what some blacks think of this government – take a hint. However it’s not about blacks, it’s everybody’s problem how this country is run. Lets not tolerate incompetence in the name of transformation.

Bogani

What is the use of having the most powerful economy in Africa if you have the majority of your people living in poverty? I know you will bash government for being unable to lift the poor from the dire economic straits. It’s true they have thier serious weaknesses. However, the question is how does government do that if 80 percent of this country’s wealth is in the hands of a few old white capitalists. The incoperated blacks like you Bongani have been made to see any call for government intervention as a threat to your interest, thus developing amongst you such attitudes of being intelligent and astute.

You forget that the wealth you enjoy today might be lost tommorow if the needs of the majority of the people are not met. The whole world is feeling the capitalist crisis of food shoratges because capitalists have decided to use food crops to produce fuels.

Capitalism is in crisis. The major economic player in the world, US, is experiencing a serious downward spiral and this threatens the stability of the whole world. don’t you ever think you are safe because you still enjoy the benefits of the skewed distribution of wealth. South Africa can easily turn into such violent protests for food as we have seen in Haiti, Somalia and other parts of the world. If you have not learned from the recent xenophobia attacks you can only be blind.

Mzugo

“There can never be fair and equitable distribution of wealth without the intervention of the democratic government that represent the majority of the country.”

There in lies the failure in your argument which mimics the failed communism model tried in the rest of the world, “wealth” is earned not distributed.

Redistributed wealth will simply fall behind in global productivity and decline in value over time, making everyone poorer, including the rich and the poor. Your belief that the government’s racist economic and employment exclusionary policies will benefit the poor by creating and redistributing wealth is misguided. Any impediment to the employment of capital be it white or black capital is an impediment to overall growth in the long term. This can be seen and is proven by our current declines in global competitiveness rankings.

Just look to the failure of the class systems in Europe. Distributed wealth as you term it rarely lasts more than two generations in a competitive environment and is vastly less productive in the hands of the second generation, as it was not earned.

Excuse me, but why does Patrice Motsepes wealth not qualify for similar distribution constraints to the benefit of the poor. He in fact faces fewer constraints than a whiteboy matriculant of today. How do the constraints on the whiteboys future improve the distribution of wealth to the poor? The laws simply decrease his possible earning of wealth and hence the overall nations wealth and available capital to employ. Why not rather reward the whiteboy, for job creation especially from the unemployed than convince him his employment of capital is not wanted in the country of his birth?

Please do not inhibit any whiteboys from the youth of today for earning wealth and creating jobs with the excuse that this acts as an impediment to a black boy doing the same. The argument should in fact be passing the opposite way as by reducing the market size that the black boy competes in will ultimately impede him as well. The bigger the economic growth the better for all as only the market and cake will expand over time.

I wish we could quantify the economic contribution all the whiteboy’s excluded from SA’s growth by statute have made to their adopted countries over the past ten years and how great it would have been to have that contribution here? How can it be argued or justified that that their growth and contribution to jobs in foreign countries is helping the distribution of wealth in SA?

You state your goal is to improve the distribution of wealth? Then kick the government off their bums and get them creating a world class education system as a matter of urgency, even if that means, dare I say it employing more whiteboy teachers, or creating more whiteboy graduates as long as it includes the best person ending up in the job. If the economy was growing as it should be, given the global commodities boom we are in, we should even be importing Australians skills and not the other way around.

Sorry Tebza

Your point is….??

Have these families who have been using the bucket systems lifes improved under black rule…. UM no !
They no have crime to deal with , rising food prices thanks to Tito and Xenophobic fires burning on the home front thanks to Thabo.

So hasnt that actually gone backwards ?

I thought people got over the whole race thing a long time ago. We now need to be realistic and put our ignorance aside. I agree with most of the bloggers, it doesn’t matter whether our president is chinese, spanish, english, xhosa, zulu WHAT MATTERS IS HOW HE/SHE CAN LEAD THIS COUNTRY TO FREEDOM. Wathi u Mandela South Africa will be a free, liberated country for all who live it it–HE LIED!!!! As far as I’m concerned I’ll never go to another voting poll for as long as I live! “YOUR VOTE IS YOUR VOICE”–yeah right!!!!

If this country wasn’t run by such rabid racists, perhaps we could have a white president (please, not Alec Erwin)
But, if you look at mentality in The Times blogs, and the hatred spewed at Helen Zille because she dares to oppose the ANC and happens to be a white woman, then no, I can’t see a white president in the near future unless the Mugabe & Mbeki apologists end up on the Darwin awards list…

Teb_za, unfortunately many of the people walking through the suburban areas ARE criminals and should be arrested.
They have been failed by the education system (which has been in our democratic government’s hands for longer than anyone in the country has been in school) and have very few economic opportunities because our economy is being hamstrung by the communist idea of ‘redistribution’.
If you want something, work for it – do not covet the possessions of others. Accept your lot in life and work hard if you want to improve your quality of life. You have more opportunities than I do on the present uneven playing field, yet you complain.

Zintle – your frustration is well understood – I use to say the same but democracy allows us to vote for somebody else if you not happy with the current regime – exercise your right. Government that doesn’t deliver needs to be hit where it hurts the most and thats voting against them.

If anyone reads through my blog thoroughly you will notice that I mention the reasons why most people would simply vote for a black president for years to come, and that’s reality. Those people, 70%, have not been failed by the government as much as the other 30%, although the services are slow getting to most of them.

believe me, they are feeling and reaping the rewards of living in a democratically run government, regardless of what someof us may say and think. To them, the little that they go from democracy they appreciate.

These are not my personal views, I have not anywhere in this blog mentioned how I feel about this government and with the attitude that is displayed in this blog, I doubt if my explanation and reasoning will get any justice.

Here’s one though though… If we all put as much effort and time as we do commenting on this blog (whether negative of positive) South Africa would be a better place. There would also have been 2 million people at the million man march.

By simply stating the fact that South Africa is not ready for a white president I knew that most people would simply throw allegations at me and most probably accuse me, my parents, brothers and future siblings of ruining this country.

I was merely answering Lindile’s question and by that, stating a fact. It is the REALITY!??

Was my response incorrect?

I guess everyone knows someone, who knows someone, that knows someone…blah blah!

I stand by my earlier comments.

Hot Lips…

My point is, (and read my lips)

SOUTH AFRICA IS NOT READY FOR A WHITE, PINK OR YELLO PRESIDENT, NOT ARE THE MAJORITY OF SOUTH AFRICAN WHO LIVE TODAY GOING TO VOTE A DIFFERENT SKIN COLOURED PRESIDENT INTO POWER.

This is not because I want it like that that but because IT IS LIKE THAT. That’s just how it is and you and I are not going to change it just because we comment and accuse the government’s weaknesses and attack it in this blog.

Remember, we are the goverment of this country, hence we only have ourselves to blame whether we like it or not!

Hard to swallow isn’t it…

Guys as I said before let’s take it easy with the insult. Da joint doesn’t have a space for that.
I know the chances of having a white president are zilch AT THE MOMENT but still we don’t have to use foul language or insult each other.
I still have the powers to delete any comment that I feel is violating the dispatch’s policy.
Thanks
Lindile

This is a very touchy subject for all of us. The truth is it won’t be easy for South Africans to go back to White President.
We were living under those conditions since we can remember,its still gonna take years before whites can get used to eat in the same table with blacks.
As Mandela said : lets forgive BUT not forget,its impossoble to forget how things were,but for us to move on we must give it a benefit of the doubt that they are accepting us as human beings.

As for Blacks,they are also racist because they are fighting what happened to them with the same tool that was used to them [which is wrong]. “Racism is HERE and it will never go away BLIVE it OR Not” We are working with white /colourd people, they still don’t consider blacks as people that can Manage anything.
BUT its for each individual to work hard and give a reason to be acknowledge IF NOT move on to the other company where someone will notice your input.Its not easy and just because you are black DON’T expect to be served on a silver platter.

We need to work together to build this country…if you can change your attitude and try Maybe,”just maybe” things can turn around for better. Take a look at yourself in the mirror…what do you see? !!!!!!!!!!!!

peace in our land!

Teb_Za you are quite correct on your assumption that SA is not ready for a white, yellow or pink president; however there in lies the pity for all South Africans.

Only once education levels rise to the overall levels of the USA or on the other hand services decline to the levels of Zim will the population be able to offer racially un-biast views on what constitutes good governance.

This is one of the main reasons why America will still be a great country in 10 years time and SA, will still be just another african country constantly looking over its shoulder and legislating for risk that no longer exist in the 21st century.

Emotionally SA is not ready for a white president.

Economically and socially, SA is deperately shouting out for COMPETENT LEADERSHIP and I doubt if she cares what colour it is.

Yet we all know that 9 out of 10 times (if not more), the heart will beat the brain into submission.

So, the pain continues…

Gadget clearly I didn’t get the chance to answer yesterday but now I’m here. For Sisanda: I don’t think the world owes me anything. My point here is that everything Atari’s colleague said was hogwash and generalisation. And whether she alone says it or ten million other blacks with her, it’s still bull.

Again Sisanda, read what I previously said in this thread and look to see where I said the world owes me (or any other black person) anything. Gadget, no sane person would think we’re (SA) okay with the interest rate about to go up for the tenth time since 2006. Blame gov and gov policy? Yes by all means cause the bulk of it lays with them. Can a white gov do better? Don’t know, but if yes it would happen it would have nothing to do with skin colour. White people have the benefit of better education and expertise (I don’t blame them for it) I agree, but the defining factor is not race but education and expertise.

Yes the ANC is a mess, but not because every single black in the ANC is incompetent and corrupt. Thats what I’m fighting. What your colleagues are doing is that they are not confronting the content but the form of the problem. Corruption, nepotism, incompetence etc are evils we live with yes, but they are not “black evils”.

And again for Atari: If those people laughing at your colleague for working two jobs are rich and successful from BEE deals, then they (not all blacks) have everything on a silver platter. But, if they are unemployed and just sitting in the townships, then they (and again not all blacks) are stupid and probably lazy. I went to Varisty (worked as a petrol attendent, and waiter to supplement what my mother could contribute) because I (and my family) wanted a better life. I work where I work because worked bloody hard in varsity and involved myself in activities that would help me get where I am today. Now for you and your colleagues – who know nothing about me or my life – to tell me that just because I’m black I got where I am through a silver platter angers me. This goes for many other black people hated for their success in life. Yes there are people who benefit unfairly from BEE, but again (sigh) do not generalise.

Go to areas like Mdantsane, DV, Zwide, KwaZakhele, Mbekweni, Khayelitsha, Langa, Alexandra, eNgotini, or Mitchellsplain. For most in those plcaces there are no silver platters. Maybe your staff (and people they know) have had things on a silver platter, but the majority is still living way below the breadline (and for some it’s not because they don’t want to work). In fact go to any rural community and see what life there is like. Does SA owe them anything? Except for essential services and infrustructure, Hell no! They owe themselves to make their lives a success.

I think we should have an indian president… this country is a typical example of TOO MANY CHIEFS AND NOT ENOUGH INDIANS…

Thank goodness for Tata

Why not White president?,I don`t believe that there are still people who have such mentality.If the government does not serve our interest,why do we have to vote for such ruling party (which is ANC).
Another thing struck at my heart are the people who think that South Africa is only for blacks,if whites are complaining will be accused of being ‘racists’.I do not want to see my country becoming another Zimbabwe.

You’ve said it all Subz!

Eish guyz and garls,wake up,this white president thing/dream of yours is not gonna happen,at least not in the next twenty years or so.The sooner we try and forget it the better,i know whiteboy and his kindred might find it difficult to forget and accept today’s reality.It’s OK to dream but dream realistically.
As for the ruling lot,its a shame,i think they have overstayed their time and should allow fresh minds with appetite to work to take over.At some stage they were good for the country but now they have become the country themselves and that can be problematic cause you start forgetting about responsibilities and who you accountabe to,unfortuntely it happens in all democracies whether you are a poor,developed or developing country.
As for the rocketing prices of everything,it is a world wide problem but other countries are managing it better cause they are better informed and prepared than our ruling lot,also their residents are not demanding the impossible as some of my fellow country man.
Cheer up bafethu,life is too short,there is so much to live for.

T.C

T.C, dreams can become real if you have the courage to pursure them!!!
I think all my black brothers and sisters have not made that mind shift ifunekayo nisenala opressed mentality! That is not going to get ya’ll anywhere!!

What!?

Well done on an eloquent and succinct posting, Subz!
I agree that you should not be judged as having been unfairly advantaged when you have clearly worked for what you have.
Unfortunately the present system in business, civil service and sport sets the talented, hard-working individual up to have fingers pointed because people think now (incorrectly) that black people are unable to compete on an even playing field.

It’s really good to see rational, well thought-out comments and points from many bloggers. It’s really good to see that people are thinking about what other people are saying and not merely resorting to stale, probably inaccurate, racial stereo-types. Even if we don’t agree with what others have to say, it’s a start that we’re allowed room to offer dissenting opinions.

TC, I don’t think it’s a dream that we should have once more a white president. I think the initial point was that it wouldn’t nor couldn’t happen again. From there, the discussion moved away from the “We should never forget where we came from” to the “we need to take a long, hard look at where we are now”.

I don’t think that anyone where is saying that we should bring back previosu systems of government. What I’m reading – from most people, anyway – is that we’re not perfect, we’ve got problems, our current leaders don’t seem to be doing all they could or should for the people who voted them in to power, how do we work together to make SA better fro everyone?

Or am I a completely “cockeyed optimist, immature and incurably green”, as Mitzi Gaynor sang in “South Pacific”?

I suggest that we have a Chinese president……who will fire shots at the protesters everytime there is a strike and give arms to Mugabe to kill his own people so that he can benefit his country which is notorious for selling fake goods (How about that as a foreign policy…….at least the Chinese are benefitting like the apartheid government was benefitting whenevr they sent armed forces to Namibia) MMMMMhmmm ….makes you think!

Nice one Tihto – seeing how multiracial we are in SA, I woudn’t be surprised to have a Chinese president at all. I wonder if there are any local chinese out there who are interested….I’m almost certain there are.

Gues what guyz….the next president z going to be Black no matter how we feel about it. Lets just pray that He will have sense not to employ only da comrades he can take on some educated people on board not just comrades who were in exile. if this can be possible i’m telling you South Africa will be great again that I know IT.

We have corruption bicoz plp in high positions dont know what to do OR where to go and look for help so instead they helping each other doing wrong thigs. Lets hope the ruling cabinet will be taken out coz so we can c sum new faces, fresh ones to

if we as citizens of south africa can work together and stop blaming the government for every bad thing happening in our lives. (dont get me wrong da gvt has not delivered in most places, tke my town for instance). we cannot blame it all on gvt. we have to learn to take responsibility for our communities, we must work hard to make our communities safe and clean and take reponsiblity for our actions. we can not wait for gvt to do everything for us or else we will always be victims.its about tym we stop acting like victims of gvt and show them we can make it. we cannot do that unless we learn to work together and stop blaming or rather accusing each other.

We wont stop seeing each other as black and white but if we work together instead of against each other we will make it and make SOUTH AFRICA A BEST PLACE TO BE…..AND A PROUD ON TOO

zanele – don’t you want to run for President? You’d get my vote!

Mr Editor

again I say, while you allow articles like this in your newpaper, this country will never be at peace!!
The joke of it is Obama is not a black man, he is a coloured man.
Let us have a coloured man for presidentin South Africa!!!!

Yeh!!!!!!!!

South African (and aren’t we all?) what you seem to have overlooked is that the rest of us South Africans are talking about the issue, mostly without throwing insults at each other. It’s a start, it’s a start. If we can talk on the bloggs, perhaps one day we will be courageous enough to talk face to face about the same issues?
But you’re right about Mr Obama’s antecedents. I made the same point somewhere at the top of this particular thread.

Zanele, well said! As long as it’s not Zuma we have a chance!

One question, you say that SA can be great ‘AGAIN’. Which previous greatness are you referring to?

hey guys! Ive been thinking.. Is it possible for politicians to eva work together instead of against each other? everytime they talk it seems to bad mouth each other. is it possible that they can work 2gether and correct each others mistakes.

politicians seem to know whats wrong and they not doing anything about it, they waiting for da ANC to do evertyhing and thats impossible. its about tym they talk less and act more and fix what seems to be broken. If one party can take a stand and act in favour of people and listen to what we want instead of whay they want we will have a chance.

they fighting about us and in that mist they dont know what we want or rather 4get what we want, they only come to us when they need our votes. imagine if one person can come and listen to us instead of doing what they think we need which most of the tym is definately not it at all.

dont get me wrong, politicians are in their positions bicoz of us (right)and they need us to stay there (right)so when is it eva going to be about us not about them.

last year i decided that im neva voting again boz i saw that none of us eva matter its always about them. im still faced with challenges that i had when i started voting and i saw that as long as its about them nothing will eva change so why waste my tym and vote. we were told that if we vote things will work for us and nothing eva did its always about them and their egos. so guys i need to be convienced that the next president is going to be for us not for himself or his party.

if polititians can work 2getha and we work 2getha imagine the fruits of that. everyone has big dreams about SA but along the ways it becomes about one person (what i can do instead of what we can do) and then things become a mess. I luv SA and Im proud to be a South African, nobody will eva take that away from me. ss guys what do you say ” WE WILL MAKE IT U WILL SEE ” 2MORO IS OURS nobody can take that away from us not ANC, PAC,UDM,NP nobody!!!!!!!!!We are going to make it they dont knoe that be we do.. isnt that great or what……

zanele – in my humble opinion you speak a lot of sense my friend.

But I feel you’re going to be eternally disappointed if you need convincing that the next president is all about the people, and not about his party and himself!

It’s the eternal question – how do we get politicians, whether they be local representatives or the big man at the top – to listen to the people at large? It’s the million dollar question, and the person who gets it right will deserve more than a pat on the back.

But, I don’t think that will be achieved by not voting. You have a right to vote, don’t waste it. Do your research, listen to these people who are in office, and make your decision from there. Don’t be a sheep and just follow others, that’s why many countries are in such pitiful states today!

It’s always been my opinion that if you don’t vote, you don’t have a right to complain about those in office. Do your homework, and vote accordingly, regardless of their colour or creed. It will take time, but things might just change.

Preach it. Sister Nonny, preach it.

Let us pray that many hear you and act accordingly. That way we just might avoid a repeat of the Zimbabwean issue largely caused by over-loyal voting.

Wow, nonny you’re spot on. Now if only we had actual ANC card carriers (if any are brave enough to show themselves) members who possessed even half your common sense then Polokwane probably wouldn’t have happened. The fact that the ANC’s (fully paid up) membership isn’t even half of our population is an indicment on us. If we all voted the ANC wouldn’t have as much power as they have now.

Yes, Subz!, but would ANY party we voted for hold true to their promises once they took power?

What we need is more Independents who are elected by their local constituencies. Trouble is, there aren’t many, and those that do pop up are frequently underfunded in the electoral races.

I know what I think the problems are, but I’ll be damned if I have any really good ideas for fixing them. Do you?

Stentor, you don’t need your own good ideas. Just use those of the government employed columnist who yesterday was calling for a white leader who would convince the white population to give up what they have worked for, for the greater good of the country. You sure would make yourself popular very quickly by following his advice (NOT). What a load of tripe…

realist, are you referring to the barnacle* who always claims to be “writing in his personal capacity” shortly after it has been made very clear that he is a spokesperson for the Bureaucracy? The commentator who seems to hold a political opinion slightly to the left of Robert Mugabe? Or have I the wrong writier in mind?

* “barnacle – unsightly and unwanted growth on the bottom of the vessel impeding progress and requiring removal.”

Independents are far more in touch with their constituents, because they do not follow party dogma. They are there to represent YOUR views, not their own. They are there to do what YOU tell them as a community.

So if you have an Independent in your area, find out more about them, tell them your woes, what you like and don’t like, and if you get a reply that you like, then consider voting for them. If all they’re interested in is putting THEIR viewpoints over, then they’re not the person for you.

If you can’t find one, then why not considering taking on the role yourself? So often people are justing waiting for someone else to take up the helm. Not everyone has the confidence to stand up and be counted, but will be prepared to follow and support someone who can. You would be surprised.

Stentor’s right about lack of funding though. Don’t have any answers for that unfortunately. Having said that I found out a helluva lot from my local Independent after having a very long chin-wag with him when he came knocking at my door. Sometimes things are lot easier to fix than you may think!

Yes, that’s him. There is little hope for the future of our country with people like him are employed as spokespeople for the government. Not a reconciliatory bone in his body.

Stentor, you make a good point but like you say independents get swallowed up by the might of “big spenders”. When they get big enough to compete they are no longer independent, and like all these other parties they too will have other masters (funders) than just constituencies.

From my experience some solutions to some problems come only when you’ve taken the first step.

This morning (around 5am), before I came to work, watching the SABC news I heard that a certain comrade of the ANC – who by next year will either be the most powerful person in the country or the most powerful person in prison – speaking at an event in the EC, said that the ANC would rule forever. This is the second time this gentleman has said this. (First he said it was by divine powers)Don’t know about many, but this type of arrogance just pisses me off and leaves me feeling violated.

Hardly months after kids died in their droves (for the 2nd time) due to gov ineptness in this province, here he comes and says this cr*p! It’s clear these guys (people like JZ in the ANC) believe that by virtue of being a liberating movement they are entitled to plunder at will. It’s time people showed them, that though we appreciate their sacrifices and hard work to liberate the country, it does not entitle them to kickbacks, immunity to the law (for them and friends), BEE deals etc.

Maybe, just maybe the ANC’s role was only liberation. Stentor, I don’t have any good solutions, but do know that I’m getting tired of this. The first step would be to show the “ruling” party that their rule is cast in stone and change can happen again. Public commentators need to let people know just how much power their vote has, and we need to get rid of this thinking that politics must be played on race in this country. Maybe then our opposition will also be policy driven instead of focusing just on their watchdog role.

Interesting comments. Most people come from a very different place than me, having suffered much. I never have.
But wasn’t Mandela and the original ANC leadership pushing reconciliation (a policy of forgiveness). It seems to me that theres no good reason to oppose a white president in future if he has the right policies or approach to the world. He can’t be blamed for the actions of his forefathers, nor can anyone. Perhaps such a man, who is acceptable to the people at large, won’t ever come around. But if he does, it seems to me to be wrong to not vote for him just because of his colour. I’ve been watching Obama’s candidacy and support him fully, but his colour has nothing to do with it. In the end the impact on your life will depend on his policys and his principles. Shouldn’t we be judging a man based on his character?

full disclosure: I’m a white new zealander, 25yrs old. Make of that what you will.